Blogariddims 40: John Eden & Grievous Angel present grime in the dancehall

74 minute special! Lyrical onslaught! Shocking out!

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00:00 Introduction
00:26 Neckle Camp feat. Jammer, Rinse FM
01:02 Turbulence acapella
02:06 Turbulence – Notorious (THC Muzik 7”) 2005
02:40 Trim & Radioclit – Turbulence remix (from Soulfood vol 1) 2007
06:45 Richie Spice – Marijuana (from Spice In Your Life 2004)
08:25 Jammer – Burning (from Are You Dumb vol 2) 2007
10:45 Bob Marley and the Wailers – So Much Trouble in the World (from Survival, 1979)
14:05 Mercston – Trouble (from Da End of Da Beginning) 2006
16:31 Skepta – Blood, Sweat and Tears (from Greatest Hits) 2007
19:32 All In One – Flows (from Bless Beats – A Hard Days Graft) 2008
21:14 Frisco – Skeng Man Mode (from Peng Food) 2008
23:24 Slix – Maniac (from Down vol 1) 2006
26:12 Neckle Camp feat Jammer, Rinse FM
27:39 Baby Cham & Mister Easy – Funny Man (Mad House 7”) 1996
28:53 Lady Saw – Sycamore Tree (Mad House 7”) 1996
30:01 Frisco Kid – Rubbers (Mad House 7”) 1996
31:05 Buju Banton – How It Ago Go (Mad House 7”) 1996
32:08 Tanya Stephens – Yuh Nuh Ready Fi Dis Yet (Mad House 7”) 1996
33:37 Slew Dem – Joyride Vocal (Slewdem Productions 12”) 2005
35:13 Dutty Doogz – Pum Pum Stealer (Night Flight 12”) 2003
36:35 Harry Toddler – Good Good (Night Flight 12”) 2003
36:49 Flow Dan – Galist (Night Flight 12”) 2003
37:16 Jamaka Bi – Zoom 4 Pum (Night Flight 12”) 2003
39:15 Kano and Vybz Kartel – Buss It Up (679 7”) 2006
43:16 Neckle Camp feat. Jammer, Rinse FM
44:01 Yami Bolo – Top Shotta (Black Diamonds 7”) 2002
45:48 Junior Reid – Rise Up (Black Diamonds 7”) 2002
46:32 Half Pint – Bounce (Black Diamonds 7”) 2002
47:37 Lukie D – One In Ten (Black Diamonds 7”) 2002
49:12 Rossi B and Luka – Nobody Knows (from The Legacy EP, Heavy Artillery 12”) 2007
51:29 Ini Kamoze – World a Reggae Music (from Sly and Robbie’s Taxi Sound, Auralux LP) 1984
53:03 Rossi B and Luka – Run 4 Cover instrumental (12” white label) 2005
53:48 Rossi B and Luka feat. Nasty Crew – Run 4 Cover (12” white label) 2005
56:45 Neckle Camp feat. Jammer, Rinse FM
57:13 Breeze – Ice Rink (Wiley Kat 12”) 2003
59:16 Tinchy Stryder – Ice Rink (Wiley Kat 12”) 2003
60:36 Kano – Ice Rink (Wiley Kat 12”) 2003
63:56 Riko – Ice Rink (Wiley Kat 12”) 2003
65:58 Sizzla – Give Me A Try (from Rise to the Occasion) 2003
67:18 Jammer – Give Me a Try (from Are You Dumb vol 2) 2006
71:04 Sizzla Vs Rhianna – Give Me A Try (remix) 2007

It’s war on the streets! Young people, out of their minds on hi-grade skunk and turkey twizzlers run amok on the buses, traveling free courtesy of insane communist overlord Ken Livingstone! No alley is safe, no tower block lobby can evade the evil mob of grunting hooded young thugs happy-slapping decency into the gutter of Brown’s Britain!

At the root of this epidemic of anarchy is the unholy trinity of the Playstation, liberal do-gooders and menacing Grime Music. Yes, that’s right, Grime Music, which is made entirely on Playstations by CONVICTED CRIMINALS beaming their amoral message into YOUR CHILDREN’S SKULLS. Grime Music cannot be heard by adults, the SINISTER SOCIOPATHS behind it have ensured that its atonal rhythms can only be picked up by the tender ears of stoned kids.

And as for the words…

I got into Grime via Dancehall and Reggae but I was never sure if the lines I was drawing between the two were actually there. Certainly it’s easy to see the similarities – MCing over mad riddims about what is happening on the streets, pirate radio, lyrical beefs, aggro, girls. Bass.

That made me happy, but I felt like an old fart saying it – “ooh it were a bit like this in my day! We used to love having a dance around the gramophone at the weekend to a bit of reggae”. Plus it seemed like a lot of grime fans and producers saw jungle as ancient history – further back than that things got blurry – prehistoric stuff best left to archaeologists.

Turns out I was worrying unduly, I just had to listen a bit more instead of making things up in my head. When I reviewed “An England Story” in The Wire I mentioned that Grime was the point at which cockney, yardie and a heap of other influences converged to form a new dialect which was pure London 21st Century. Those other influences include a tonne of African language and culture, but Jamaica is always there in the background – bashment patois being a fearsome weapon in the armories of Riko, Flowdan and Killa P to name but three.

And the ancestry isn’t just cultural – it’s genetic in some instances. Grime don Jammer has talked about his dad being involved with soundsystems and counts Benjamin Zephaniah as a family friend. Trim’s mentioned his father being a reggae artist. When rising star Skepta was interviewed for Woofah he went out of his way to talk about how great Ninjaman’s flow is. Through my nerdy glasses it looks like JA music has had just as much, if not more influence on Grime than hip hop has.

Grime Mixtapes are a weird artifact – 20 track CDs of often variable quality. It’s been argued they came to prominence when the raves started getting shut down and there was nowhere to go to jump around to riddims juggled on 12″ vinyl anymore. The two best things about mixtapes is their price (6 quid for an hour of music), and the space they give MCs to experiment with different styles, moods. They are an arena which allow the various influences on Grime to emerge, which allows opportunists like me to join up the dots.

Gathering together all the reggae influenced grime I could find and jiggling it about has been great fun, but as usual I owe everything to Paul’s technical skills in making it coherent. The original idea behind this mix was to create a gateway drug for reggae and dancehall fans – to seduce them into Grime. Right now I’m just happy to play the thing over and over again to myself and smile.

There is a lot we left out, and there is a fair bit which has come out since we finished as well. Not all Grime is as reggaefied as this by any means, so see this mix as a little glimpse at how things work in our heads – our personal selection.

Paul’s comments on the tracks and the blends and mixes are now up over at his place.

Track by Track

00:00 Introduction
00:26 Neckle Camp feat. Jammer, Rinse FM

I dunno where to start with Jammer, except to say we had to start with Jammer!

01:02 Turbulence acapella
02:06 Turbulence – Notorious (THC Muzik 7”) 2005
02:40 Trim & Radioclit – Turbulence remix (from Soulfood vol 1) 2007

Turbulence is from JA, Trim is out of East London and grime super-crew Roll Deep, and Radioclit are French.

I first heard Turbulence on a few Xterminator 7″ around 2000 time, but Notorious was a bolt out of the blue when it was released. It featured at the climax of the mix me and Paul did for BBC Radio Lancashire’s legendary On The Wire Show. I first heard Trim’s take on it on the way to work. Standing on the platform at Liverpool Street, mouth open, other commuters barging past me. Trim is lyrically out there even by Lee Perry’s standards – seriously deep, meandering stream of consciousness stuff which gets better the more you let yourself into his world. Investigate.

06:45 Richie Spice – Marijuana (from Spice In Your Life 2004)
08:25 Jammer – Burning (from Are You Dumb vol 2) 2007

Richie Spice gets refixed by a dubstep producer who shall remain nameless, Jammer leaps on board – inserting his flow in the gaps. Which is exactly how U Roy intensified the whole deejay thing in Jamaica – busting his rhymes in the spaces on old Treasure Isle rocksteady tunes to nice up the dance.

10:45 Bob Marley and the Wailers – So Much Trouble in the World (from Survival, 1979)
14:05 Mercston – Trouble (from Da End of Da Beginning) 2006

Tip of the hat to Paul for all his little touches here. And a doff of the cap to Mercston. What I like about this is Mercston’s denial of politics at the end of such a great conscious tirade. Grime isn’t usually the arena for people to bang on about international affairs or the Iraq war, but like a lot of great music its strength is its ability to articulate the concerns of working class urban yoot, which is probably more relevant in any case.

16:31 Skepta – Blood, Sweat and Tears (from Greatest Hits) 2007

Continuing the conscious theme, Skepta comes correct with some nice reggae references and good anti-gun sentiments. There’s a bit of schizophrenia in a lot of grime artists’ repertoires, which is another thing in common with dancehall. Skepta is probably best known for his “god forgive me if I bust my nine / If you diss my Mum then you’ve crossed the line” bars but here is coming on all responsible. This isn’t anarchopunk so I don’t think anyone expects the artists to have a rigid ideological framework for their lyrics and there is a playfulness to the MCs’ personae that I think outsiders can often miss.

19:32 All In One – Flows (from Bless Beats – A Hard Days Graft) 2008
21:14 Frisco – Skeng Man Mode (from Peng Food) 2008

Some more great mixing from Paul here – can you spot the transition between the tunes? Wicked riddim from Bless Beats who is out of Wiley’s Eskibeat camp – the minimalism here is so effective you don’t want it to end and it’s yet another grime riddim you want to come out on a 12″ doublepack so you can mix it up all night long. Anyway Frisco’s kindly warning everyone here that he is likely to go a bit mental on occasion, so people better watch out. One of the more awkward incidents in grime radio was the recent on air meet up between Frisco and some guy who had been openly sharing his whole mixtape online.

23:24 SlixManiac (from Down vol 1) 2006

Impossible to argue with this – stupendous riddim from Maniac, the teenage producer interviewed in Woofah issue 1, with vocals from Slix out of premier league crew Ruff Sqwad. As I’ve said before – the skank on this is ridiculously compelling and should knock any scepiticism from reggae fans who have listened this far into a cocked hat.

26:12 Neckle Camp feat Jammer, Rinse FM
27:39 Baby Cham & Mister Easy – Funny Man (Mad House 7”) 1996
28:53 Lady Saw – Sycamore Tree (Mad House 7”) 1996
30:01 Frisco Kid – Rubbers (Mad House 7”) 1996
31:05 Buju Banton – How It Ago Go (Mad House 7”) 1996
32:08 Tanya Stephens – Yuh Nuh Ready Fi Dis Yet (Mad House 7”) 1996
33:37 Slew Dem – Joyride Vocal (Slewdem Productions 12”) 2005

Getting a more bashy than reggae here with the exhumation of one of Dave Kelly’s classic riddims – in fact forget that – one of the classic 90s riddims full stop. Paul manages to include some records I feel guilty about owning, submerging Baby Cham and Mr Easy’s less than enlightened lyrics under Lady Saw’s dextrous verbal assault. Tanya also puts her hand over Buju’s potty mouth and basically gives all the boastful geezers a well deserved tongue lashing. You go, girl!

Slew Dem purloin the riddim for an epic pass the mic session of adrenalised geezers staking their claims.

35:13 Dutty Doogz – Pum Pum Stealer (Night Flight 12”) 2003
36:35 Harry Toddler – Good Good (Night Flight 12”) 2003
36:49 Flow Dan – Galist (Night Flight 12”) 2003
37:16 Jamaka Bi – Zoom 4 Pum (Night Flight 12”) 2003

When Woebot used to write about grime, this is the sort of thing he used to cover. There are clear lines between this and contemporary dancehall, not least because of the format – several sides of vinyl all featuring different MCs on the same riddim. Also Harry Toddler is an actual JA deejay who came up the rankings with Elephant Man when they started out in Scare Dem Crew in the late 90s.

One of the weirdest thing about the actual records is the labels, which are pretty gynaecological photos of… well, some lady’s pum pum innit. I can see the consistency and honesty in that, but it’s not something to leave on the decks really. What confuses me is why someone has gone to the trouble of sticking little gold stars onto some of them as if to prevent offending minors and the innocent. Or is it like a gold star to say “well done”?

Dutty Doogz, is now Durrty Goodz – cover star of Woofah issue 2. Flowdan is a Roll Deep stalwart who has also done major damage with The Bug.

This section actually features me doing a bit of proper vinyl juggling for a change – sometimes these things just work out ok…

39:15 Kano and Vybz Kartel – Buss It Up (679 7”) 2006

I think this ranks as the first actual vinyl collaboration between a grime MC and a JA bashment one and it’s pretty damn good into the bargain. Kano has had a disastrous foray into mainstream label middleground output which pleases nobody. “Buss It Up” is much more like it.

43:16 Neckle Camp feat. Jammer, Rinse FM
44:01 Yami Bolo – Top Shotta (Black Diamonds 7”) 2002
45:48 Junior Reid – Rise Up (Black Diamonds 7”) 2002
46:32 Half Pint – Bounce (Black Diamonds 7”) 2002
47:37 Lukie D – One In Ten (Black Diamonds 7”) 2002
49:12 Rossi B and Luca – Nobody Knows (from The Legacy EP, Heavy Artillery 12”) 2007

It amuses me that some people try to establish their reggae credentials by slagging off UB40 or Shaggy or Sean Paul, all of whom have made some brilliant records in their time and are held in high esteem by the reggae industry and fans in Jamaica.

One example of this is veteran producer Fat Eyes grabbing the riddim for “One In Ten” a few years back and getting a selection of foundation singers to voice it. Yami Bolo kicks things off with a message to all the badmen, whilst Junior Reid exhorts us all to stand up for truth and rights. Half Pint brings us back down to earth with an enthusiastic invitation to get down in the dancehall, and then Lukie D polishes off the selection with his take on Birmingham’s finest conscious anthem.

Which leads us nicely to Rossi B and Luka’s take on the tune. Nobody seems to have a bad word to say about these two – and the way manage to straddle both dubstep and grime is maybe a signal that garage various offspring are now ready to regroup. There are so many dodgy producers who grab a bit of reggae in the vain hope that a bit of “yard cred” will redeem their rubbish tunes that you forget sometime that some people actually know what they are doing. I guess that’s what this mix is about and we make no apologies for include two Rossi B and Luca productions here – they are dons at this and you should check out their releases every time you see them. Also check the myspace for mixes aplenty.

51:29 Ini Kamoze – World a Reggae Music (from Sly and Robbie’s Taxi Sound, Auralux LP) 1984
53:03 Rossi B and Luca – Run 4 Cover instrumental (12” white label) 2005
53:48 Rossi B and Luca feat. Nasty Crew – Run 4 Cover (12” white label) 2005

Damien Marley’s “Welcome to Jamrock” was a very welcome salvo of commercial one drop in 2005. I only hope Ini K got some decent dunza from being used as source material. So here is the original, an astounding bit of Sly and Robbie business from immediately before the whole world went digital.

Rossi B and Luca’s take is pretty brutal, not least because of the addition of Nasty Crew. NASTY apparently stands for Natural Artistic Sounds Touching You and I’ll leave you to be the judge of whether or not the excellently named Nasty Jack, Kassimo, Stormin and Teddy Brukshot live up to the acronym. The sheer energy here is stunning. I’m still kicking myself for walking out of Shoosh early and missing a set from Nasty Crew founder Marcus Nasty…

56:45 Neckle Camp feat. Jammer, Rinse FM
57:13 Breeze – Ice Rink (Wiley Kat 12”) 2003
59:16 Tinchy Stryder – Ice Rink (Wiley Kat 12”) 2003
60:36 Kano – Ice Rink (Wiley Kat 12”) 2003
63:56 Riko – Ice Rink (Wiley Kat 12”) 2003

Woo yeah! Back in da day Wiley was running tings with whacked out minimal riddims and everyone was begging for rewinds at his Eski dances and all that. Except me, obviously, I was listening to reggae and studiously ignoring it all on the grounds that I couldn’t afford a new vinyl addiction.

Paul really excells himself here. Even if you’ve played your copies of Ice Rink to death I think his mashup of 4 takes on the riddim are well worth a listen. Breeze is an original back-in-the-day Pay As U Go Cartel – the crew who kinda mutated into the juggernaut known as Roll Deep. I don’t know much about him tho. Ruff Sqwad member Tinchy Stryder must have been still at school when his cut was done? His voice has come on some in the last 5 years – the Cloud 9 mixtape is his latest release and is good. As I said above Riko has an incredible yardie flow going on his intense hatred of informers is legendary. This tune also makes an appearance on the “An England Story” comp which no doubt you have all picked up by now, but here we have Paul chopping away on the crossfader like a man possessed. There are another 4 vocals on Ice Rink but I’ve not been able to get hold of them for anything resembling a sensible price.

65:58 Sizzla – Give Me A Try (from Rise to the Occasion) 2003
67:18 Jammer – Give Me a Try (from Are You Dumb vol 2) 2006
71:04 Sizzla Vs Rhianna – Give Me A Try (remix) 2007

And so we finish things off with some nice garridge flava. Jammer pushes all our buttons once again, nice-ing up the place with Rihanna and Sizzla providing back up.

No Comments

  1. PAUL.MEME says:

    stupendous write up!

  2. DROID says:

    Fantastic set and post. Best intro ever as well…

  3. YO YO says:

    good stuff

    Rossi b and luca produced “14:05 Mercston – Trouble (from Da End of Da Beginning) 2006″ aswell

  4. DUBVERSION says:

    Another winner, thanks a lot guys (as ever)

  5. DANNY says:

    Big up. Wicked set. Can’t wait to get home and DL this.

  6. TOM LEA says:

    There are another 4 vocals on Ice Rink but I’ve not been able to get hold of them for anything resembling a sensible price.

    yeah- but it’s scratchy, all in one, sniper e and someone else I think. definite b team effort.

    anyway, this looks HUGE! downloading now…

  7. DAN says:

    interesting selection, although i don’t know how you could do a ting connecting grime and dancehall without don corleon or john john, or baby g for that matter. i guess thats nitpicking and everyone has an opinion on what could have been included. i notice that your ashamed to own a 7″ with homophobic lyrics? you may as well give bashment a wide berth generally if thats the case, and Jamiaca is a homophobic country by western standards even in the mainstream outside of music. I’m not saying thats a good thing, but just like talking bout shanks and guns and killing and all types of mess in hip hop & grime, people are capable of taking a wider view. If i censored my dancehall diet because of this there’d be nothing left. cheers

  8. DROID says:

    I dont think thats true. I ‘censor my dancehall diet’ because of this, avoiding blatantly homphobic tunes, and theres still tons of stuff out there to buy, new and old.

    Just because homophobia is prevelant in JA doesnt mean I have to sponsor it.

  9. DAN says:

    well it kind of does because you are supporting artists that promote it. just because you’ve picked one that doesn’t SAY it your still supporting the same people.

  10. JOHN says:

    Yo yo – thanks for the tip off on that, they are pure fire for definite.

    Tom – yea but also Dizzee I think! But yes if I had to choose I would go for the one I already have :)

    Dan – yeah it’s always a personal selection. I think homophobia and Jamaica has been done to death on this blog already really so I didn’t bother to go into it again here.

  11. DAN says:

    john-where did it get done to death have you got a link? its something i find really interesting. Its just weird to me that murder, guns and degrading women are all fine but…..

  12. JOHN says:

    There’s no definitive article, just put homophobia in the search box and have a wander.

  13. DROID says:

    And you should check out DFAH as well.

  14. DAN says:

    droid/paul-thanks, the dfah site seems to be down unless i’m going to the wrong place. while i’m here check these mixes we’ve been posting, they’re by my boy toby etheridge and are an amazing history of nineties/early 00’s dancehall, and the mixing is the tightest i’ve ever witnessed with 7’s.

    http://www.slamxhype.com/blogs/d/theotherclub/2008/04/18/top-shotta-brock-out-vol-65

  15. Fantastic… how did you guys know this was exactly what I needed today? Nearly 20 years on and you guys are still schooling me.

    I get to see Dizzee on the last stop of his US tour here in L.A in May… can’t wait!

  16. JOHN says:

    Sharon – just doin’ our job ma’am ;-) enjoy Dizzee – be interested to hear how it is / what you think of it.

    Dan – I think that one of the reasons homophobia is different from guns/girls is that there is no counter response allowed. When me and Paul do a mix we would usually try to balance gun tunes with peace tunes and pum pum tunes with female vocals or something a bit more (ahem) romantic. But that isn’t possible with stuff about kill the chi chi man etc, cos there is no counteraction.

  17. DAN says:

    john- i was done here but you engaged me!

    thats a nice way to look at it i spose in the context of a tape or a set, its just a moral minefield to me when i start making concessions to what i think is right or wrong. A serious gay rights advocate would say you were out of order for playing ANY buju tune and would see it as condoning boom bye bye. They would see you as doing wrong even though you obviously are not condoning homophobia and are well aware of right and wrong. I try not to play things out that are seriously lyrically overt like boom bb, but i would hope i could credit people with enough gumption to make up their own minds and not connect every lyric with the personal views of a selector. At some point you are making concessions to artists that are homophobic, there’s no way around it once you scratch the surface of the argument, so i prefer not to start.

  18. DROID says:

    Like all moral questions this one is all shades of grey. I don’t really buy into the argument that playing tunes by an artist you know is homophobic is sponsoring homophobia. I love James Brown, and buy his tunes, but that doesn’t mean I agree with how he treated women and his many children – all you can judge by is what the artist says on record, not by how they live their lives, their political or social views, or by what they did in the past. By not buying blatantly homophobic tunes, you’re sending a message to the artist, and more importantly the labels and distributor that you find them unacceptable. If everyone did that, then those tunes wouldn’t be recorded anymore because there would be no market for them.

    As for the guns/girls thing, sure, theres a dilemma there. But as I said, its shades of grey. Other than the point John made, songs that ‘degrade’ women (and dancehall is often obscene, but not always degrading in its treatment of women), or songs that glorify gun use, usually stop short of advocating murder or rape, and in most cases were violence is being glorified, the sentiment tends not to be directed at one particular group.

    In the end it’s down to the individual to make their choices as to where the draw the line between what’s morally dubious and what’s incitement to hatred. For me that line is at the point where artists advocate the murder of others based on race, sexuality or political beliefs.

  19. PAUL.MEME says:

    Big up Rose Ov Sharon.

    So does everyone fucking love the Rossi B and Luca cut ups or is it ust me?

    :) :O

  20. DROID says:

    Stop changing the subject Paul! :D

  21. DAN says:

    droid, i don’t think playing or buying any record insinuates anything about anyone-that’s the whole point of what i’m saying, but the fact is whether you like to admit it or not you are in some peoples eyes condoning it, thats all i meant to say. You can’t avoid that if you are a fan of bashment no matter what you say.

    Going off topic as we’re starting to go in circles now, you guys should do a mix of grimy sounding dancehall rather than grime that mixes with reggae-JA producers have been in touch with UK styles for so long-what about dave kelly does jungle on backyard & dugu dugu riddims? there’s so much crazy futuristic stuff that was way ahead of grime or anything else in that amazing late nineties early 00’s period. mixing it with bob(i’m not ever dissing bob b4 you say it) and richie spice/turbs to me isn’t doing the influence of jA on Grime justice.

    cheers

  22. DROID says:

    Sorry Dan, that doesn’t wash. I think its reasonable to assume that someone who plays out or buys a lot of white power heavy metal is racist – if not, they are certainly giving that impression, and I think thats an assumption most sensible people would share.

    Now – someone could come along and then say that ALL European metal is racist – and thats obviously NOT a reasonable assumption, so just because a radical gay activist claims that all dancehall is homophobic (and Ive heard that opinion expressed) doesn’t make it so, as its based on misunderstanding of the content followed by an unfair generalisation.

    If you went to a gig that featured mainly racist metal would you really give that DJ a free pass?

    If you don’t think that the music you play says nothing about you, why would you: ‘try not to play things out that are seriously lyrically overt like boom bb’?

    Anyway. Im as sick to death of this argument as anyone else here.

  23. DAN says:

    thats you droid, you do you, i’ll do me. i like all bashment and can look past it, nearly all artist in jamiaca is against homosexuals, thats the reality, its you that can’t handle the reality, i accept the reality and use my brain, i don’t need a selector to censor things for me, if you undertsood yard better you’d have a better sense of humour.

  24. DAN says:

    reggae isn’t yours to take and make your own watered down version of, i don’t want to water it down. i’m done now for real. Its really obvious and stupid

  25. DAN says:

    “If you don’t think that the music you play says nothing about you, why would you: ‘try not to play things out that are seriously lyrically overt like boom bb’?”

    because its extra incendiary and anyone knows that, don’t talk stupid, i’m saying i’ll still play kingfish lyric or whatever but i also try to be a reasonable human being though get me? seriously out now you donut.

  26. DROID says:

    Ok Dan thats fine. I understad that you might not want to ‘water down reggae’, but maybe if you try watering down whatever it is you’re drinking you might be able to come up with a coherent argument that doesnt rely on tired DHR style ‘Im more yard than you’ bullshit.

  27. DAN says:

    DHR style? fuck you you prick. i am more yard that you you little fassy hole

  28. DROID says:

    Thanks for proving my point. I thought you were finished here?

  29. DAN says:

    the point is you are talking total shit

  30. JOHN says:

    Thanks for dropping by and giving us a lecture on what records we should and shouldn’t play, Dan, it’s been special.

  31. DAN says:

    no problem, you might learn something but you’re too concerned with being the only reggae fan in the village to notice

  32. JOHN says:

    Are you done now, Dan? :-) You (or someone else involved with that blog) emailed me about the waterhouse mix like a month ago and I already responded. Yeah we need all the help we can get, so it’s brilliant you came along to tell us how wrong we all are. Thanks!

  33. DAN says:

    sweet, its an absolute pleasure.

  34. SPOTTED-G says:

    ‘Through my nerdy glasses it looks like JA music has had just as much, if not more influence on Grime than hip hop has’

    Why belittle Dancehall’s indisputable influence on Grime by comparing it that of hip-hop? I would love to know what influence you think hip-hop has had at all? Certainly there are similarities with the the dirrty south etc but, as attested to by bloggariddim 11: Another Crunk Geneology, the similarities are probably due more to a process of co-evolution from a common ancestor than anything else. It’s one thing when the Observer fecklessly replaces ‘Grime’ with ‘Hip-Hop’ as if the two were synonyms, another when underground scholars start making the same mistake. Why does the obvious influence of early 00 Garage (itself wheened on Dancehall among a variety of disparate others) fail to get a mention? Everyone knows that Grime, Dubstep, Bassline are the enterprising children of Garage – Hip-Hop has never been embraced by this family.

  35. JOHN says:

    Did you enjoy the mix, spotted G?

  36. SPOTTED-G says:

    I’m so sorry, how rude of me! The mix is absoloutely excellent, and I made the point only because I think it is to downplay the relevance of Dancehall by comparing it to Hip-Hop. Evidently, I’m quite the sentimental Garage boy, quick on the defensive, so please forgive my lack of courtesy.

  37. JOHN says:

    Ha ha, no it’s fair enough mate – and it’s good to see a bit of passion anyhow! I think I deliberately overplayed the hip hop thing in the write up because of all the nonsense about grime being “uk rap”, the mix being a way of telling another story… thanks for dropping by :)

  38. PADRAIG says:

    first off, thanks for the mix. I’m not much for dancehall but I’ve yet to hear an Eden/Meme mix that was anything less than great.

    a quick, respectful counter-point to spotted-g – I understand what you’re saying but I just can’t agree. there’s the technical aspects; double-time flows have always been a part of US hip hop – Das EFX, Freestyle Fellowship, Bone Thugs etc. – and the production isn’t so alien either – not just the usual stuff mentioned like Miami Bass/crunk/Timabaland but also a lot of the synth based stuff that was coming out of the Bay all through the 90s, or J Dilla’s more electronic side (see “Go Hard” by Q-Tip for example, or “Raise It Up” by Slum Village). more importantly though all the grime “pioneers” grew up listening to Nas, Biggie, Wu-Tang etc. in addition to jungle and later 2-Step. I’m not trying to downplay the importance of dancehall or jungle or UK garage at all but it seems more than a little nuts to suggest that hip hop hasn’t been ONE OF, if certainly not the primary, influence on grime. another thing I think you’re ignoring is the somewhat incestuous relationship between dancehall & hip hop. the influence of JA soundsystem culture on the birth of hip hop is well documented but for there the last 30 years there’s been a pretty fair & steady amount of crossover between the two, from KRS-One making frequent use of a chatting style & sampling Yellowman to Bounty Killer releasing an LP w/guest spots from Raekwon & Jeru the Damaja to Jay-Z jumping on a remix of that Mavado track. my point being that it’s not easy to just separate out which bits of grime came from dancehall and which from hip hop.

    also there’s a good reason why grime gets passed off as a mutant form of “UK Rap”, at least in the US. Whereas in England it’s probably just lazy journalism and/or a look to boosting sales, over here it just makes more sense – mainly b/c most Americans don’t even know what the hell the ‘ardcore continuum is, let alone enough about it to place grime in its’ proper context of the jungle-dnb-garage lineage. it’s much easier to just call it rap than it is to get into a lengthy, Reynolds-esque explantion about acid house & soundsystems & Todd Edwards or whatever.

  39. PADRAIG says:

    oh, and as far as hip never having been embraced by the post-garage “family”, I think you’ve got it backwards – grime never gained enough popularity to gain access to US hip hop. it was never embraced beyond a few isolated incidents and almost all by southern artists – Dizzee w/UGK, Sway (with his tenuous grime status anyway) & Chamillionaire, Semtex’s Crunk’N Grime compilation, maybe w/Kardinal Offishall in Toronto if you want to count that. note that I’m not arguing that this was a good thing by any means. I think it would’ve been amazing if grime could broken into the US mainstream even in a moderate away. but if it wasn’t going to happen in the UK it certainly wasn’t going to happen here.

  40. JOHN says:

    Padraig – thanks for dropping by! Been trying to reply to your comments for a few days now and not managed it, but believe me, been digesting them… thank you!

  41. PADRAIG says:

    ^oh, I don’t always expect responses when I drop incredibly lengthy, disjointed rants on other people’s blogs. just thought I’d chime in from a US perspective – of course the UK is a 1000 yrs ahead when it comes to both ‘ardcore & everything even remotely related to reggae but hip hop, even after all this time, is still defined almost everywhere in the world by its’ American qualities, especially in England where proper “UK Rap” seems to be almost entirely based on very traditional NYC sounds & styles. one other thing I’ve been thinking about with the influence of American rap on grime – not just the sonics but the swagger. of course grime retains a ton of ruffnek/bashment ting but all of it, especially a couple of years ago, was so reminiscent of the FEEL of NY Rap circa ’93-97 (that is, from Wu-Tang until Biggie died and everyone started wearing flashy suits & gettin jiggy); crews of angry, young MCs in black hoodies jumping around in grainy, low-quality videos and kicking raw verses over pounding, sparse beats. Wiley comparing himself to Jay-Z when he was talking about retiring. I think Trim is grime’s answer to Ghostface (and I mean that in the best way possible, being a huge Tony Starks fan). I don’t want to go on too long but I do think it’s hard to ignore the parallels between “Illmatic” & “Boy in Da Corner”.

    oh, and one last thing on the sonics – I was listening to Company Flow the other day & thinking that El-P’s old productions from the mid-late 90s really prefigure both grime & dubstep – he always cites the Bomb Squad as a big influence though being in NYC in the 90s perhaps he was listening to Todd Edwards cutting up samples as well? I guess we’ll never know.

  42. […] — like Woofah itself — serve to underscore the relationship between reggae and, say, grime. Of course, this is a story being spun by the Heatwave boyz too, and it’s worth noting that […]

  43. […] Podcast med mixtapes: En podcast med numre sammensat af en DJ. F.eks. det udgåede blogariddims: http://www.uncarved.org/blog/2008/04/blogariddims-40-john-eden-grievous-angel-present-grime-in-the-d… […]

  44. ELIJAH says:

    so sick, only stumbled across this today. fucking wicked. gosh

  45. […] convergence between dubstep and reggae now seems everyday, humdrum even. I still find the grimey reggae lash up far more rewarding. That’s how I got into grime – seeing Flowdan and […]